CONTROVERSIAL

[BoldogKennel]

Good post Jasper, and I like the fact that you can bring experience from the horse world to the dog world. There are far more similarities than differences when you start talking about serious performance animals, no matter what type. Breeding, genetics and selection are the same.

The point I am getting at is how many litters of pups would have to be bred and raised to get a couple of good game dogs?

THIS, to me Jasper, is THE cruelest aspect of dog fighting. I've said it for years. The fight itself is not nearly as awful as the conditions that the VAST majority of dogs live in. And no dog fighter on earth can convince me otherwise, because I've just seen way too many examples of really, really shoddy care. To be pointed about it, look at the conditions that "top champion" fighting dogs in all the Stratton books live in! Stratton is one to paint dog fighters as wonderful, caring human beings, and yet, judging by just about every picture in his books, 99% of these guys won't spend a weeks worth of beer money to build their "champion athelet" a decent dog house. For pitie's sake, Sarona Motorhead, supposedly a valueable and much valued stud dog FROZE to death... There is NO excuse for that crap. And I find it very interesting that after being involved in the world of dog and cock fighting in one way or the other for 2 decades that the care given to the birds is 100% better than the dogs. Go figure! There is a very definite difference in the quality of human being generally speaking between dog fighters and cock fighters. And - are you listening Evan! - I happen to think a large part of it is because up until recently cockfighting was legal - so you had law abiding citizen involved. Dog fighters now have to be people who don't give a rip about becoming a felon... this is huge. Because despite what the HSUS and PETA think, making dog fighting a felony does not STOP IT, it just makes conditions for the dogs even worse... And stopping the magazines? Well, HSUS makes sure that the young kids coming up, the ones who WILL fight dogs and cocks, cant get any good information... they just read the crap in the paper about using "bait animals" and feeding gun powder. The HSUS has been so incredibly devastating to the pit bull breed in so many ways.

But I digress as always!

Jasper, I agree 100% with you. I don't think two dogs tearing each other up is a necessary action. It produces a dog with really, not practical worth. Now a gripping dog, that's another story. And while many will laugh, and say that only fighting makes a "game" dog, I'm not so sure. I happen to think that some of those old baiting dogs from the 16th century were probably as game as anything we have today, and they weren't "dog fighting dogs".

So it is up to us, today, to figure out how to keep the breed from becoming just another generic show breed. This is a good place to discuss ideas!

[jasper]

Thanks for the comments on my comparisons to the horse industry. I actually had written a post for a different thread here comparing the huge variation in registered quarter horses to the huge variation in pits today but ended up deleting it...maybe I'll try to dredge it back up!

I have little experience with what "game" is, but it seems like it involves a dog giving its all and trying a hard as it possibly can. It seems that this trait could be seen in weight pull, in schutzhund, in many competition and trial situations where the dog is tested to its limits without causing physical harm.

[cainenine]

I want to thank everyone for thier input on this matter and I can only hope others that have an opinion or thought on the issue will join in as well.

With that said I wanted to respond to a few things myself and hopefully share where I'm coming from on the topic and how I see it. First, Jasper I want to thank you for sharing your insight on horse racing and while I have no doubt that what you say is the truth I come from a slightly different place than some I don't mean to come across heartless or blind to the conditions of horse racing or dog racing for that matter and in a perfect world there would be a perfect solution to ensure every animal was cared for and treated well. This however, is not the reality and while many horses are sent to slaughter I support horse racing and believe that horses should continue to be bred for that purpose. The collateral damage may not be pretty and perhaps there is something that could be put in place to improve upon them but either way I believe it would be a greater tragedy to see all the horses that do make it lose thier purpose.

We have seen that animals with no purpose don't fair any better than those bred for performance, how many dogs die each day in America that never even had a chance due to being bred for no purpose at all?

Things have changed in America due to the conditions we live in, lets face it most of us if not all compared to other parts of the world are very fortunate and even spoiled, because of this animals in our society have reached new heights within the human pecking order, this is largely due to the fact that dogs are no longer needed for anything more than a cute companion. There was a time where a dog that didn't serve a greater purpose wasn't worth feeding especially when you had a hard enough time feeding your own family.

This is no longer that case and that is fine but in my opinion animals serve only one purpose and thats our purpose as human beings and I think there is enough room for everyone to choose and select what role animals should and will play in thier lives. Of course we as a society need to have a set standard by which every animal should be cared for, I do not condone torture, or allowing an animal to pointlessly suffer but when it comes to life and death, while this may seem harsh I feel that belongs souly to the owner of said animal.

For my dear friend Diane I know you are well researched and have found a lot of dirt on dog fighters from the past and present but I do wonder about that dog who froze to death, how many other dogs did he have on his yard that same winter that survived? If you deal with a large number of animals accidents do happen and sometimes as humans its down right our own fault, so while I'm not saying the owner of that dog was some great guy I do feel that taking one piece out of the whole is not fair. If you know enough about anyone you can come up with something to make them look bad, hell thats politics in a nut shell.

I do think that there were good people in the sport, no I don't think they were perfect and by todays standards they were probably down right horrible dog owners but I do not judge someone by how they treat thier animals. I don't have to like the way they care for their animals but I do not think that the way someone is with a dog has any bearing on how they are with the more important issue, people.

I have had this discussion before and I personally know someone who was very good to their pets and quite abusive towards thier children and I have known people who neglect the heck out of their pets, some who bring home and get rid of pets faster than I go through shoes who are good parents and spouses and while I understand the kind of lesson they're passing onto their children is not a good one, it doesn't make someone a bad parent.

[cainenine]

Part 2

The real issue of this post was whether dog fighting in any form could be done in a proper fashion and if so how would that look. I respect that for most that answer is no, no matter what. I just happen to disagree, what I do agree with is when you point out the culture of dog fighting in the past, even in its hayday it was not done properly or with the best interest of the dog or breed in mind, it was sure a hell of a lot better than it is now with class of folks involved in the sport today but I think it could be a whole lot better compared to then and especially now. So while I don't expect to change anyones mind I would like to propose the way I believe dog fighting could be legitimate endeavor.

First and foremost it has to be legal, from there the legalized sport of dog fighting has to have strong set of rules and regulations, in order to do this it would need a strong governing body that would put on and up hold the rules and regualtions for sanctioned events. The other and perhaps most important thing would be how the money is handled, one of the biggest problems in dog fighting has always been in order to make a buck you have to gamble on your own dog, in any professional sport this is a big NO NO, it causes too many problems and conflicts of interest. In order for dog fighting to be a legitimate sport whatsoever it would have to be modeled the same way any professional fight is run i.e. boxing and UFC, the amount for each opponent is agreed upon ahead of time and contractually bound, this alone would help improve and promote the mortality rate and overall interest of the dogs during and after a match.

Now I'm not going to sugar coat it I am speaking of full on dog fighting and so yes dogs could be severely injured or even killed, for me thats not the real issue, the real issue for me is raising the level of care for the dogs before, during and after a fight and raising the caliber of people within in the support while at the same time improving on the status of fighting dogs as a whole. As Diane mentioned, one of the worst problems is the fact that two dogs in a fight mean little more to those fighting them than dice. I believe through creating the proper enviroment many of these issues could be addressed.

In an ideal world if dog fighting was a legalized, legitimate sport I think it could be a very profitable one and while some may consider money to be the root of all evil it does have a way, when regulated properly to provide the best in technology and science and it tends to attract the best people in their respective fields. So imagine if you will a dog fighting convention where the best representations of the breed are brought forth, where the standards set forth address not only fighting ability but type and conformation. Imagine instead of amateurs just trying to throw whatever poor dogs they can find in a pit without proper regard for whether they even belong there, having professional that have had to put in the proper time, energy and money to go through the appropriate channels to have their dogs certified as match worthy. I could go into great detail as to how I see that working but this post is already long enough and I have more too touch on.

Again, while I could go into exhaustive detail I'm quite certain this post is already exhausting enough, so I'm just going to go over a rough draft of how I see a match being run.

First, two dogs of equal weight would be placed in a match that would be allowed to last for two hours maximum with thirty minute rounds, five minutes between each round to evaulate said dogs. If the match goes the distance both dogs would be declared game, there would however be a judge or more to determine the winner based on set perameters. Certain injuries i.e. broken leg, severe laceration or other life threatening injuries would stop to the fight. There would be a professional referee with full authority to stop the fight at any time. Any dog at any point shows any sign of wanting to quit would instantly stop the match. There would be professional handlers in each corner who have the authority to pick a dog up at any point and time, no owners or individuals with a vested interest in either dog will be allowed to participate with any duties pertaining to the match . There would be licensed, professional vets onsite for each match to supervise the condition of both dogs that are specifically trained to know what to look for, they too would also have absolute authority to end a match. Ideally onsite or at least near by there would be the neccesary medical equipment to tend to any dog.

I'm sure there are many holes in my short synopsis above about whether this would truly prove anything or preserve our breed, I assure you I have given this a great deal of thought and certainly I still don't have it all figured out but please do challenge me on any issue herein as I believe I have a lot of answers but have never had the pleasure of really working through or debating the matter with other folks, I'd like to see how well my ideals hold water

Lastly, while I do have a lot of provisions set up in my imaginary world to protect the overall life of a dog, make no mistake they are not designed to prevent a dog from truly being tested and pushed to the brink, more so than anything they are safety nets to help prevent us humans from our own nature of pushing the envelope too far. Not to say it would never happen as all the safety nets in the world can't prevent every tragedy. As far as I'm concerened a dead dog is a worthless dog but that is also why I would require the mandatory saving of sperm from every dog that was qualified and certified to be matched prior to its first fight.


Am I dreaming? Perhaps and I will say this. If everything I touched on above was not possible even in a legalized enviromnet due to one reason or another, then you're right I don't believe dog fighting has any place in America or any else for that matter because for me this is the standard by which I think the sport should be up held and the attention to quality and care our dogs deserve. I will not waiver or compromise that, even to save them.

[HappyPuppy]

I believe the tides of the world have changed enough legalized dog fighting will never be possible/acceptable. The whole swing now is toward creating equality and fairness and improving living conditions and stopping the atrocities of abuse across the board - reviving dog fighting or similar activities in a legal arena would be reversing in the opposite direction.

I can empathize with the desire to keep the breed 'true(er) to it's history' than the generic BYB dogs that are getting pumped out by the millions - to the point that my husband thinks I may be sympathetic to dog fighting (prolly because I frequently read on GD forum and comment on topics/history/etc I've read there - maybe it's like stockholm syndrome ...LOL). In reality I am not in the least sympathetic and I do oppose the practice tho I am no crazed furmommy, either. In fact I will always only ever be a pet owner (probably of rescues), so for the most part, 'any' pet bull will do (for me - tho I do wish that my girl had a bit more drive at times...). I can almost support rolling (in theory) but any 'fighting event' I ever witnessed like in another country would be the first and last, undoubtedly - and there will be no event that I ever witness.... And if there is no future for dog fighting, what would be the purpose of maintaining the practice of game testing? I think the purpose for these dogs has finally changed irreversibly and new avenues need to be found and pursued for them in order to keep the breed as robust as possible for those that want it that way and mainly to even create (new) reasons for keeping the breed alive at all in the face of BSL and entrenched media hysteria.

I do believe for the true fanciers that a 'thoroughbred' level of quality and caliber is desired and should somehow be maintained but this level of fancier is a minority among the current climate of 'pit bull' ownership (soccer moms to celebrities to professional athletes to schutzund competitors to thugs to ignorant first time owners, etc), I believe, now that 'the circle' has been breached. But then again who are the real 'breed stewards'. I have seen a number of dog fighting videos/clips both domestic and international and they always leave me with my hand over my mouth in shock..... Malinois are crazy drivey and they are not fought... so there must be a way to preserve the edge in a more humane way.

These are just my opinions that are based more on years of reading on forums than hands-on involvement. As I said I'm just a newbie pet bull owner with no personal associations of anyone 'in the breed' other than one or two pro-pit bull rescue friends. I don't compete in any dog sports (tho I may in the future when/if I get a sounder athlete). I have read no breed history books cover to cover or even ever spoken to any breeder respectable or otherwise. Just my observations that are based on daily forum (at least 8-10) readings and an admiration for APBTs rooted in my adoration for my first dog ever, Ms Ruby Undderfoot a rescued pit bull type dog whom I've had for 6 years.

I was intending to post link this in the 'news' section but Diane's comment on prev page about the 'conditions' led me to post here --- this is another 'Daily Mail' piece --- about a foreign fighting operation that is horribly sub par (if there truly is a 'par' anymore) with conditions that are abusive to the dogs:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... imals.html

[cainenine]

HappyPuppy Thank you very much for joining in the conversation and while you spent a good amount of time sharing what expertise you didn't have you certainly came across very sound and intelligent.

I plan to read that article you posted later I hope I don't forget as I am very interested but don't have time here before work.

The one thing I did want to say is I agree with you that I do not believe dog fighting will ever be legalized in any form or fashion and you're right the world, well especially America has turned towards trying to make everything fair and good the problem I have with this is much of what they're doing is really stepping all over the rights I feel many people should have. I guess what I'm trying to say is in some ways I think they've gone too far with this PC stuff and I fear its only going to get worse.

I don't like when the goverment works to protect me from myself, I'm all for education so we as a people have the proper information to make our own decisions and I'll even go as far as saying I'm comfortable with certain levels of regualtion to at least try and ensure people are doing things in an acceptable way and if they don't then there should be penalties in place to penalize them.

I also think that the status of animals and especially dogs in our society have reached epidemic proportions. I respect someones right (even if I don't agree with it) to value their dog as much if not greater than that of humans, don't get me wrong I LIKE my dogs way more than I like most people but I don't value his life more than a persons.

I have stated and still believe despite the fact that in America this is considered taboo that while I may choose to hold my dogs in a higher regard than simple live stock to me thats all they really are. As I have said I would like to own a pig, I hear they're super smart easy to train very clean and if I had one it would probably be treated the same as my dogs, live in my house have its own bed things like that but I would not then turn around and say people shouldn't hunt or eat pigs. As far as I'm concerned while its certainly nothing I would want in my diet all these thousands of dogs that die for no good reason in America should be slaughtered in a way that allows them to be distributed to countries that do eat dog. In fact if there happened to be someone that lived in America that liked dog meat I don't see why they shouldn't be entitled to go down to a local kill shelter and pick one up.

People may consider that gross or disturbing but its all about perspective, in India try to eat a steak and you'll be looked at like an awful person. Other countries look at us and laugh at the way we regard dogs in our society.

This is a slippery slope folks these do gooders are not going to stop with dogs or cats, I mean heck why not say its wrong to say keep flock guardians to protect your live stock? How inhumane (which by the way i don't think it is inhumane) is it to have a coyote whose hungry come onto some families farm only to be ripped to shreds by a Kuvas, or Great Pyrenese etc. There are less tramatic ways to get rid of a coyote, farmers should have to hire skilled rifelman to pick off any coyotes that are causing problems on a farm.

The real issue is not the act of two dogs that want to fight being fought its the general care of these poor animals receieve by unscrupulous folks. That is the issue, every time I hear of some horror story about how these dogs are treated 90 percent of the time its not even during a fight and yes I know there are horrific cases of abuse associated with that as well, I'm just saying its more about the care or lackthereof that these animals get. THAT MY FRIENDS should be the primary objective and issue on the table, as fas as I'm concerned if you take the appropriate care of you dog before, during and after a match you're good with me and the reality is the best way to ensure any level of appropriate care is to legalize and sanction dog fighting thereby allowing legitimate law abiding folks to participate.

I mean really, what is so inhumane about two dogs that have been seletively bred to enjoy combat fighting? Is it inhumane to allow a hunting terrier to burrow into the den of an angry badger? lets not pretend that badger has any desire to be there or have its his space invaded by an aggressive intruder also lets not pretend that hunting terriers haven't suffocated to death inside the ground because they were unwilling to back out and leave their quarry or been killed or at least severly injured by their prey but the truth is they love it and while it may make you sad to see animals willing to sacrifice themselves due to the very hardwiring we as human beings have selectively manipulated in them, those animals arn't sorry they don't even know how to be sorry they just know they want to do it again even if it costs them their lives.

Oh sure the ones that do survive and have to endure the pain and discomfort of battle don't much enjoy it but with proper treatment and care many do recover and if given the chance would do it all over again in many cases if given the chance they'd do it all over again even before recuperating.

We feel so sorry for animals for some reason and in some cases justifiably so, but sometimes for no dang reason at all. When a person is fortunate enough to die doing what they love what do we say? Well, if they had to go thats the way they would have wanted to.

Come on folks compassion is a wonderful thing but don't abuse it LOL people remark all the time that animals are innocent but if something can't be guilty then it can't be innocent either.

Okay so I'm sorry I have ranted on long enough, again thank you everyone who has participated in this discussion I do really hope more folks will join in and share thier opinions and ideals or just yell at me thats okay to.

[cainenine]

Please excuse my typos and lack of proper punctuation my wife read my post and pointed out all of them to me, what can I say I was rushed for time due to work. That and I simply suck at spelling in general and punctuation for that matter.

[BoldogKennel]

Good post Cuda.

You know what's tough about this whole thing? The fact that we love dogs more than any other species. And they, truly, love us. It makes treating them like ANY other species a bit dicey.

[cainenine]

Good post Cuda.

You know what's tough about this whole thing? The fact that we love dogs more than any other species. And they, truly, love us. It makes treating them like ANY other species a bit dicey.

How fortunate for the other species LOL and just so I am clear I am speaking about something these dogs love, not all of them so I'm not talking about them and as I have attempted to point out we do put dogs in harms way in other ways all the time through hunting, using them to protect our live stock from other predators, even in the world of hardcore training for things like Schutzhund or French Ring Sport, dogs are put in harms way, maybe not as directly or intentionally but I'm sure there are horror stories about dogs getting severly hurt while working.

Some how dog fighting has gotten this horrible stigma surrounding it and personally I think it comes from two areas, #1 the media, in the past they have at times flat out made up crap regarding the goings on in dog fighting and #2 the actual people involved with the sport and perhaps today its a lot more from colum 2 than comlum 1 but regardless anytime you incooperate irresponsible careless people you get a BAD outcome. I have seen the way many dogs are trained for protections sports and while Diane you buck that trend I'm certain that many a pit bull would rather be in the midst of battle with another dog than being hung til they pass out or spending a day out on the training field being shocked, that if anything is the true measure of how much a dog wants to please its owner, that is the only reason the dog continues to work not because they love it. Again I know Diane that is not the case with your dogs they love everything and yes I have seen you rail against those methods within your own circle and probably beyond but I've yet to see you work to have them outlawed.

[doginhold]

I do think if it was legal and strictly regulated and provided with professional medical attention before and afterwards most dog would benefit from it!
As long as there´s no gambling allowed might there be more sportmanship concerning the benefit of the dogs involved and maybe they won´t be let down too long in hope to save the gambled bucks!

It´s similar to the Greyhound races over here! You are allowed to compete but you aren´t allowed to gamble and the dogs benefit from it as such things like happening in Ireland don´t happen to the Greyhounds over here!

The other question is a question of personal ethics!

Would I compete with my best friend in a staged fight and risk to get him severely injured or eventually risk his death by shock or kidney failure or an artery bleeding that I can´t manage to stop?
Would I feel ok if my dog is handing out such damage to another dog?
Me, personally not and that´s why I wouldn´t compete in dogfighting even it would be legal!


On the other hand I´ll be sure that the dogs that would be used in a match anyways (how many people do care about if it´s legal or not?) might benefit as they won´t live hidden and abandoned, maybe the "quality" of people participating would be a better than today and the medical care as there would be a legal possibility to take him under professional care would be guaranteed and the so called "Humane" Groups out there won´t kill them if there owner gets busted even though they are trustworthy and healthy animals!

The matter is how could you extinct the desire of people to participate in a staged dogfight?
The media doesn´t really care about the benefit of these animals all they are out for is another blood and violence story to sell and provide a wrong image!
Also this kind of media gets people interested in these activities as they might think this would be a way to gain a tough image or make a quick buck!

What we do need is a fair and critical discussion that would be based on facts!

Then people could decide if it should be legal or not!

So should we legalize dogfighting for the eventual betterment of the care and living circumstances of the dogs involved or should we find a way to end this sport?

That´s a question that can´t be answered easily and probably never will as each person has it´s own way of moral and ethics and I think concerning this topic there would be no way to find a common base!